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Welcome to Time to Gather. A podcast where women talk it through one story at a time so that we can all move towards more purposeful, integrated, more powerful lives together. I'm Melinda Bullen. And I'm Emily Jennings. And we're two working, living, surviving, trying to thrive women living on two different coasts, from two different generations, with the same love for good conversation, curiosity, and connection. We're imperfect, we're learning, and we are you. And we're so grateful you're here taking the time to gather with us today.

 

Emily: Hi, Melinda.

 

Melinda: Hi, Emily. 

 

Emily: How's it going?

 

Melinda: It's going really well. Excited about our next episode.

 

Emily: (laughing) Yeah, well, that's good to hear. I'd be really sad if you were like, “Ugh, not forward to this one,” because today I am sharing a little bit about my story and that’s what we're going to be talking about. So, this season we are talking all about risk and jumping off and taking the leaps and exploring what that's like. And the different experiences that we have had. And our guests in the future have had. 

 

Melinda: Yeah. I'm super looking forward to hearing your story today, Emily. So, as you all know by now, we have formal bios linked below that you can read and get to know a little bit more about us and our backgrounds. But today I get the pleasure of telling you about the Emily I know. The colleague, thought partner, co-creator, and fierce friend. So, as Emily mentioned in the last episode, we met while working together at another organization. We were peripheral at first. Sort of in each other’s orbit but through shared meetings and shared colleagues and then ultimately a lot of shared projects. We got to know each other a little better-- a lot better I should say.

 

Emily: A lot better.

 

Melinda: And it really didn't take long for me to see that she was a force. A powerful force. So, I could tell you all fifty stories that give examples of what I mean by powerful force, but what I'd like to do is just let me define that through what I see is the lens of Emily. So first, I want to talk a little bit about her insight and wisdom. Her insight, right? I think a lot about that word and what that means and for me that meant that she brought so much to our projects and conversations in terms of seeing things from a different perspective. But what was really special, I think for me personally, was that she allowed me, with her insight, to see myself differently. Things that I did, that I didn't realize were valuable, or talents, or gifts-- she could not only see them but then she was able to come to me and articulate them and help me see them. That's insight. And she does it with people, she does it with projects, she does it with the world, and it's just extraordinary. But also, her wisdom. And for me that means-- I've always noticed that she's really responsive and not reactive. There's little chaotic energy with Emily. I feel like I have a lot of chaotic energy (laughing). I don't think she does. She does not seem to have a lot of chaotic energy. (Emily laughing) You're laughing but I think that's really true. Instead, I just always get a sense from you of a deep grounding. What feels like a knowing. And I once described her as a metronome which for those that don’t know, that’s the tool that musicians use-- that sort of ticking tool that allows them to keep rhythm and a beat. That may have seemed like a super strange comparison but the reason it came up for me is because she is steady. She's present and predictable in a way that brings calm and confidence to situations. So that is how her insight and wisdom are powerful forces for sure. But she's also just plain thoughtful. I have so many memories and experiences where she has taken time to really honor moments that often slide by us especially with ourselves because we're just not trained and taught to celebrate ourselves and our accomplishments in a really open and public way. And so, we often put them aside or cut them up or you know eschew them in some way. And she just really stops and takes a beat and lets you know, “I see you. I see what you've done and I celebrate it.” So, when I say she's thoughtful, it's in those ways. Those ways of making the unseen seen, which is really beautiful. She also reminds us of the positive, the previous, and the often unrecognized. So I can't count on two hands how many times she has reminded me of the shoulders we stand on, right? Those that have preceded us. And it's not just about reminding me of those folks that have come before us, but it's the reminder that we are also stewards of those that are coming after us. And so, part of our work is continuing to build the ladder for the next generation and that's something I think resonates deeply with me and I'm so grateful to work with somebody that is a champion of that way of being. I also want to talk a little bit—sorry! (laughing) I know, Emily, this is so hard for you but it's just something people need to know. I think that if I were to put a little pyramid, like an Emily pyramid together, the thing I put at the very top…

 

Emily: (laughing) And bury me in it!

 

Melinda: No! No! It’s your integrity. I have very strong memories of the multiple times in our work together with other people-- not necessarily always with me directly-- but in witnessing you with other people doing the hard thing, right? And it wasn't because you were being righteous. And you were teaching lessons. It was because you were practicing what it means to live in your own values, right? And in watching you do that I was like, “Oh my gosh. It would be so much easier for her to just go along with this, right? To ease into the group, or to melt into what was happening.” And instead, you were like, “I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do this.” And you were able to do that in those moments in a way that allowed people to maintain their dignity, right? There's no shaming of other people. But you were also able to model a really, what I would say is the thing we all probably knew was the better choice and weren’t making it. So that's something, when I say it's at the top of my pyramid-- that is like my go to Emily-- you are a person of true integrity. But I'm being very serious and one thing that is not so serious is her sense of humor. She's also very funny. You're going to get to see that a lot in this podcast, but my favorite part of her funniness is that it's really a sly and subtle and it sneaks up on you sometimes. But it's also the kind of funny where you're laughing about something way later than the funny moment because it just runs really deep. So, at the end of the day, I hope you can see what I see, and I know you will. She's just good people and I feel really lucky to be able to share this podcast with her and really lucky to share her with all of you. So, with that, Emily, I'm hoping…

 

Emily: And she's crying, people! Right over here.

 

Melinda: Oh! 

 

Emily: Thanks, Melinda.

 

Melinda: You're welcome, but it's all so, so true. And now I'm really excited because I've said a lot about you but now you get to say a little bit about you in sharing a story. So, why don't we take a listen.

 

(Voicemail) Emily: Hey there! This is Emily calling in with a story that I didn't expect to tell but seems to be the story I'm needing to tell. So, throughout my childhood and teenage years I had all these really weird symptoms that were kind of shrapnelled over time and throughout my body. Like double vision, migraines, fatigue, throat pain that would cause wild coughing fits, dizziness. And these things continually got worse into college. So, we definitely tried to diagnose these over my childhood through a good handful of different doctors and visits usually focusing on the individual symptoms. And there was just no relief. These visits also came with a good heap of skepticism and, like, disbelief from doctors. And in middle school a really formative experience was hearing one of them tell my mom that he thought I was making up double vision for attention. And at some point, I started to believe I was making up these symptoms, too. So fast forward to my senior year of college and things had gotten worse-- terrible pain, losing hand mobility, incontinence. And at the time I worked at this campus Health Center with a bunch of really solid and caring women. I remember going in after a really bad night of symptoms and telling my doctor there that we needed to figure this out and that I wasn't going to stop until we did. I was able to do that because I felt like I had this group of people that wouldn't stop until we did. So, it turns out that I grew up with an undiagnosed brain malformation called Chiari and I needed brain surgery. So, one of the riskiest, most for me, quality of life decisions I've ever made wasn't even a decision that I really remember actively making. I never really thought not to do it. I don't think I ever thought not to do it. Long story short, things went really, really wrong and I had a very long and grueling medical journey. And I'm really grateful to be here sharing this story with you today. But in reflecting on this jumping off moment-- this story-- what is striking me the most is that what I thought was a quality-of-life decision for me actually turned into a how I lived my life decisions. From self-advocacy, to getting really clear on what I value in this life, to taking future risks and jumps, to loving my community-- choosing this surgery, choosing me just changed everything forever. Thank you. 

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Melinda: We're back. Thank you so much, Emily, for sharing this story. I know the story because I know you and we've talked about it. And you've even been able to share parts of your experience with me in moments of deep empathy with things I might be going through. So, you have gifted this in some ways-- gifted this hard part of your life to me, and I'm sure others in helping them get through hard parts of their life. And so yeah, thank you so much for sharing it today. I wanted to just first check in and say how did it feel to tell this story?

 

Emily: I think it felt really grounded. Like I felt like my feet were firmly on the ground. Like I said in it, I wasn't expecting to tell this story. I was trying to think of all these different moments that I've taken risks and jumped off and, like, shifted life-- especially in the professional world since that's a lot of what we're kind of connecting with and focusing on. But when this part of my story kind of bubbled up, in that, it just was, like, “This is what I have to tell. And that kind of-- that knowing. And it's like, “OK.” I kind of tried to back out of it. I was like, “But this isn't connected enough and clear enough to these different, these-- the purpose finding parts of life.” This is just a medical health decision, you know? I tried to minimize it, but there was this undercurrent that was like, “Nope! This is the one that kind of shapes a lot of the rest of what I've been able, and how I've been able, to live life.” 

 

Melinda: So, you know, I have felt that fear, right? Of not knowing what was wrong but knowing something was wrong, right? And I have no doubt that our listeners have had experiences in their lives, too. So one of the things I was thinking a lot about with this story is how did that fear manifest? How was it showing up for you in those early years? 

 

Emily: Anxiety! And continues to show up as anxiety. I mean, I think, in the early years of growing up, I mean, you don't know what other people are feeling in their bodies, right? So, you kind of have this ability to normalize what you're feeling in your own body, and you don't necessarily know that self-trust. Like, we’re taught at a young age, you know, like, if you're hungry, wait for dinner. You know? Like so many ways our self-trust is corroded and if you're--“Too bad that you're tired, we need to keep doing this thing,” or whatever. Yeah, it felt like a kind of self-doubt. Like I'd be having these really wild symptoms and pushing them aside. It felt like pushing myself aside. That's what it was. I'm totally processing this out loud because it’s a good question.

 

Melinda: Yeah, yeah.

 

Emily: But yeah. That fear felt like everything else mattered more than me. And I think I was, as a woman and as a person, who's really very socially justice minded, and have always been, and I just felt like I could power through. You know, over and over again, and it felt really bad. Like I really vividly remember when I heard the doctor tell my mom that I was making it up and there was part of me that thought I was, even though I’m not an attention seeking person. Like, that wasn't in what I was doing. If I would have been able to, like, look back and, like, reflect on myself, I wasn't trying to get attention.

 

Melinda: Yeah.

 

Emily: But I started to think I was.

 

Melinda: You know, you and I have had, you know, offline, in our friendship, conversations about this idea of seeking attention, right? Like kids seeking attention or like this ascribing of that. And I've had moments of that in my childhood, too, as an extroverted, high-energy little kid, right? And sort of, like, I think part of it is that that's so interesting is whether it's true or not, it's irrelevant to me. 

 

Emily: Mmmmm. Yes!

 

Melinda: Whether somebody’s making something up for attention or something’s really happening, like, either way, it deserves attention! 

 

Emily: Yep. Yep. Yep!

 

Melinda: But I remember when you told that part of the story, I literally felt in my body that sinking moment of just not being believed. Not being seen. And for an 11-year-old, or whatever, to be in the midst of adults, in a trusting, established institution and for them to be telling you you're making this up, like that's so formative-- could be so formative, right? 

 

Emily: And I have to give such props to my mom. Like, she never made me feel like I was making things up. She always kept trying to find out what was going on with these different-- like it was so hard to pinpoint because it was neurological and neurological stuff, as we know, is really difficult for our medical world to figure out. Because it's just so difficult to kind of get a grasp on this slippery, slippery kind of magical manifestation of things. But she never made me feel that way. But the medical world definitely made me feel that way.

 

Melinda: Yeah. You know, going back to sort of the fear and the fear manifesting as anxiety-- was the fear ever helpful? 

 

Emily: Yes!

 

Melinda: Yeah? How was it helpful? 

 

Emily: So, when I was in college, my senior year, things had gotten so bad that, like, I was having terrible, terrible chest pain and pain down my left arm. And that's because my spinal fluid had built up into a kind of a cyst on my spine that was hitting that nerve. And which is the pain that you often hear about with heart attacks, heart problems and things like that. So, my partner and I literally had next to our bed the directions and the phone number for the closest ER every night because it was just this constant stress and terror of, like, things could get way worse and I was in such bad pain. Going to the bathroom many times a night. Just, like, dizzy. All of these things and you can only sustain that fear for so long. Like, you can only be in that place for so long until something is just-- it's enough! Like, you know something's wrong. You have to do something, and I think that fear gave me the courage and the power to walk in the door of my Health Center and say that we have to figure this out. Like, this long burn up of a lifetime of fear and uncertainty.

 

Melinda: Right.

 

Emily: Kind of got to that peak where it was helpful. It gave me that momentum. It made me know that something had to change. 

 

Melinda: Well, thank you so much for going to that place around fear. Let's take a break and when we come back, we’ll continue our conversation.

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

BREAK (music) Melinda: Emily and I love supporting causes we believe in and that's what Time to Gather is for us-- something we believe in that connects and celebrates all of us through stories and wild, amazing, everyday women! If you believe in helping support a space like Time to Gather, consider donating to our podcast by visiting our website timetogatherpodcast.com and hitting that donate button. Your donation helps Time to Gather survive and thrive! 

 

Melinda: Welcome back from break. I want us to continue our deep dive into Emily's story. So, you know, I love how you talk about this decision not even feeling like a decision, right? That the surgery wasn't even something you thought not to do, and it was a reminder to me that there are so many moments in life that are that way. Big, hard, risky, brave things that aren't decisions, yet, require so much of us, right? How do we prepare for these? Can we prepare for these?

 

Emily: That's the question?! (laughing) 

 

Melinda: (laughing) That's the question, Emily! I want to know what is the meaning of life? Help fix this. Help fix all of the uncertainties. (laughing)

 

Emily: Oh, what a big, beautiful question. I can speak to how I prepared for it and what I did to prepare for it. 

 

Melinda: Yeah. I want to know because, you know, this idea that we can prepare for this. Like, is that even possible, you know? Life doesn't just happen to us, right? So, I'd love to hear, yeah, how you prepared for it.

 

Emily: This isn't so much a reflection to what's coming up for me or things that I didn't know I was doing to prepare for it, but it's like a domino effect. If those things wouldn't have been in place, I don't know if I would have been able to move through this-- through this journey. The first thing that's coming to mind is to find people who love you and who you love to build that community out in a really quality way.

 

Melinda: Mmmmmm.

 

Emily: I don't think I would have taken that leap so willingly without knowing there was this net of humans around me who had me. Like, who would be able to support me when I was sick? To cheer me on? To help find doctors? To help plan medical things? To house me? To do all of these different pieces? And you don't need every person and every piece filled. And you don't know the ways that the people who love you will show up in your life. Or the people who care about you. And the people who accept you and see you as who you are. Um, what else was coming up for you, Melinda? How have you prepared for those moments in life?

 

Melinda: Mmm. I think, you know, it is a tough question, right? I mean, I think that's one of the things that I thought about a lot. The word despair has come up in my life a lot in my community of friends because people have been dealing with deep grief. 

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Melinda: And I think one of the things I've noticed about myself, as we've talked about grief and despair, is-- I don't know where I got it-- but ever since I was a little one, I've always understood, or believed-- let's put it that way-- I'm not saying this is universal truth, but part of my faith statement in the world is, “This will end.” Right? In other words, whatever hard thing I'm going through, it will end. 

 

Emily: Yeah.

 

Melinda: And I will get on the other side of it. I never knew to value that way of thinking until I've seen somebody in true despair where they can't see the end. They can't have faith that it's going to be over, right? And so, I guess, when I say, ‘trust in yourself,’ it isn't trite because it's those moments of, like, “I've been through enough life experience. I've seen what I'm capable of and I'm going to trust and I'm going to cultivate that faith that this will end.” 

 

Emily: Yeah. Yes! 

 

Melinda: So, I would say that that is something that comes up for me.

 

Emily: Yeah. And that's completely, like, triggering for me. And I deserve better! Like, I think that trusting it will end but that also that you deserve to get out of that hole. Get out of that space. And that was one of the things that was so clear to me when I got the diagnosis because Chiari is degenerative. It was only going to get worse and worse and worse. 

 

Melinda: Wow. I didn’t know that.

 

Emily: And, so, the only option was to have surgery. And reading about it and learning about the degenerative nature of it was, “Oh! I deserve better. Like, that's not, you know, the life I want to have. And I am worth this big risk. This big jump. This huge, potential expense.” You know, like, all of these different pieces that come with a big decision like that. But, like, knowing that you want something different in life and just being able to kind of innately in that direction. 

 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. That's really powerful. So, and this isn't surprising, but your story has me thinking, and had me thinking so much, about trust, right? Trusting ourselves. I think you're right. We were just talking about people trusting us. You were naming your mom as somebody that trusted what you were experiencing. Trusted you, right? And others didn't. And then us trusting establishments or experts, which is-- we're in a really, really complicated time with a lot of that. And, so, how have you reckoned with the concept and practice of trust after your experience?

 

Emily: Yeah. It completely changed everything about how I trust myself. 

 

Melinda: Mmm.

 

Emily: And has shaped how I live my life. Since this lack of self-trust and this large amount of trust in institutions and people who are knowledgeable about bodies and all that good stuff. Like, that's why it went on for so long. Like, this is something I was born with. It went into my early 20s until it got diagnosed. Instead of when I graduated college-- instead of looking for a job, I was looking for a neurosurgeon. Like, it's just such a different experience and there's part of me that regrets that it took so long. Because I didn't have my voice to speak up. Maybe I wasn't, like, pounding the pavement enough--earlier days in my life and being clear enough and that's a self-doubt that still sticks with me around things. But as far as self-trust goes, one of the ways it's really changed me is that if I see something wrong in the world or something doesn't feel right-- something feels yucky in the world, in myself, or what's going on around me, I believe myself. That if something isn't as it should be. That if something is yuck. That if something isn’t fitting with my values, taking the time to, like, sink into that, and feel it, and be aware of it. And then getting clear on the actions that I need to do to move away from that or to advocate for it or to lift that up. Like that is such a big part of my life now because I experienced it personally-- that self-advocacy is the piece that I had to learn in order to be here today. And I was continually on a medical journey. Like, it was months and months of surgeries and being in ICU's and in and out of hospitals. All these different things. And that is the trial by fire place– to learn how to raise your voice and advocate for what's going on in your body and with you. Because as incredibly intelligent and practiced and caring the helpers and the doctors and the nurses around you are, they don't know your body. They don't know your values, they don't know what's going on for you. And that's your role. And so, yeah, that's brought me forward to who I am today. And it completely informed what I do in the world, as a social worker, and as somebody who's working towards social justice. It is our role, and we are allowed to believe ourselves when we see that something's off. And we can keep lifting that up because we can believe what we see isn't what's OK. 

 

Melinda: You know, it's so interesting. You are talking about that line. The line of, “When do I take action? When do I stop questioning myself?” Not knowing, right? And you having the many years of this uncertainty of, like, yeah there's something happening but I don't… I don't know how to advocate. I don't know how to be heard. And then the questioning, right? You know, you and I've had lots of conversations, because we're always faced with choices and decision making, right? And, again, I think, as women, as professional women, as mothers, as friends-- whatever the context is, where other people are looking to us and relying on us, there is this constant balance, right? Of what is right for me and will it help me thrive? And also, how do I continue to hold up the people and the things that I love and value?

 

Emily: Yeah, yeah. 

 

Melinda: So, I think it's really interesting, you know? You're sort of articulating-- I hope I'm what you said-- but this idea that this experience allowed you to, sort of, solidify this self-knowing and this voice in a way that's given you confidence to move forward. And I have witnessed it! I have witnessed it. So, I just want to say I really appreciate you talking about the years that it took you to get there. And yeah, there’s regret. “Why didn't I see myself sooner? Why didn't I make myself louder, sooner? How could I have been heard more?” And there's nothing you have to blame yourself around, but I understand the regret, right? I understand the feeling.

 

Emily: Yeah. Absolutely. We've all had that. I feel like with something in life.

 

Melinda: Yeah. 

 

BREAK (music) Melinda: Hi all! While we’re taking a break, let me tell you about some other ways to connect with Time to Gather. You can find more episodes, resources, and more on our website timetogatherpodcast.com. And don’t forget to connect with us on social. Find out the latest podcast news, preview new episodes, connect with other listeners, and get to know your hosts, Melinda and Emily through our regular posts. You can find the Time to Gather podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn.

 

Melinda: So, you know, you talked before about people in community being the net that can sort of help catch you in this big life fall, or jump off, right? (laughing) Which is our theme! Not a fall but a leap!

 

Emily: Yeah (laughing). Emily 2.0.

 

Melinda: So, what I'm curious about as you were going through the very complicated medical journey that just started with the diagnosis, right? You sort of alluded to that in your story, but that was just the start of a really long, hard period. What practices, what people-- already talked about some of the people, so you don’t have to go too much there if you don't want to-- but what practices, what thinking did you employ to survive such difficult circumstances?

 

Emily: Wooo. There's a lot of them. Because it was survival. And I really love this question because I deeply believe I survived because of my community and because there were these people to hold on to and who were holding on to me. Things got really bad, and the doctors put it really-- they don't know how I made it through it, kind of thing, especially without any long-term changes or trauma to my brain. And it's just miracles upon miracles, for lack of better terms. So, there are many different practices. So, my mom stayed with-- I'm going to share one that my mom taught me first, because she stayed with me every night in the ICU for well over a month. She was sleeping on one of those fold-out chairs next to me and she taught me this practice to use especially at night because I would get pretty fearful, and I couldn't sleep. I was just in a hospital bed all the time and all these different things. Umm, and I don't know where she learned it. We'll have to look into that. She learned it from somewhere, but it's envisioning this light in the center of you. And then one by one, envisioning people you know who care about you and love you, wherever they are in the world and the country-- shining the light where they are. You kind of zoom out and see this map of the country, the world, whatever. And then in your mind, drawing a string from them to you. And doing that over and over again. And as you do, that light inside you grows and the web and the string coming to you-- there's just more and more of them. And it could be about people you care about too. They don't have to be thinking about you. I've used that so many times in times of fear and worry and doubt and it really helps keep me grounded and connected to my community no matter where I am. It was great during the pandemic in the most isolation and loneliness of this knowing that these people are still there. You can't be with them right now, but they're still there. 

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Melinda: I love that.

 

Emily: And people who have moved on from this world, too. You can connect those threads anytime, as well. It's just calling in.

 

Melinda: Of love!

 

Emily: Of love. Connection. The reason. You know, this humanity. This beauty of all of us. I think one of the things that's coming up for me that was also a practice was, even though we jokingly called me a grandma baby, because I needed constant care (laughing).

 

Melinda: Oh! I thought it was because you were like an old soul (laughing). 

 

Emily: No (laughing). Because I was sick, I was a grandma baby because I needed care and feeding, but I also was taking, like, a ton of medications. I was like on both ends of the spectrum of the beginnings and ends of life. This, like, 20-something year old! And, so, just to give you a picture of how, kind of like held down I was by what was happening to my body. Like how sick I was is why I'm sharing that. But one of the things that really got me through was giving in the small ways I could. So, one of my best friends just so happened to get a job at the same time a few blocks away from the hospital. So she would come at, like, her lunch time and just visit and chat with me and, I mean, I had the best room service in town! I had all these meals delivered to me and you could order on the menu what you wanted, and everything. So, I would order desserts I knew she liked, and I would save them for her from my meal.

 

Melinda: Oh. That is so sweet. 

 

Emily: Little things like that. Or when my partner came to spend the night in the room with me on the horrible fold-out chair. I couldn't go do it, but my mom and I, like, planned it, and she went and got, like, all this candy from the gift shop at the hospital to give to him. To make it feel special. So, these little acts of gratitude and kindness I remember sharing made me really clear to share with the people I know and love what they've given to me in my life and how much I value them. I think it really helped get me through because what was given there was so much generosity being given to me by so many people and in so many ways, from sending me stickers, to pictures of the outside of gardens and the outside world, to keep you grounded in that, to reading poetry, to visiting.

 

Melinda: Because this went on for months.

 

Emily: Yeah. For, like, months, months, and months.

 

Melinda: Yeah. I think that's important to contextualize here. This wasn't a week in the hospital. This was months and months in the hospital. For anybody that’s been in the hospital no more than a couple of days, it’s hard to even imagine, yet there are a lot of people in that circumstance, and you were one of them.

 

Emily: So, yeah, to nurses, like, bringing dry shampoo to do my hair because I couldn’t wash my hair. All these-- so many, so much generosity.

 

Melinda: So much kindness. Yeah. It's beautiful.

 

Emily: And I think one of the things that really helped me get through it was this recognizing that the world goes on and that we all play this role in the world and that that's enough. Like, what we have to give to the world is enough. It was a very weird situation because I was awake-- we called it ‘awake in the neuro ICU'-- the would be the title of the documentary about it, because a lot of people in the neuro ICU aren't awake. They've had really terrible brain traumas, like aneurysms and strokes, and a million other scary things. They're dying and asleep, or whatever, next to you. In the same room. Sometimes in the room over. And so, there were many times I was really near to people who were passing. And I think part of that was there was this role that being so near these people, who I had never met, never seen, as they were having their last moments in the world, and seeing their families come in, where this letting go and honoring and loving of their spirits and who they were. There was this one night where a woman came in who was pregnant with twins and had suffered an aneurysm. She was in the next room to me and as she was passing, I could see through the cracks and the blinds her family gathering around her-- trying not to see, trying to be respectful. But you could feel it! You can feel it through the wall, of course. And the hospital that was at is literally called Harborview because it has this great view over the ocean, and I had been in there enough times that I finally got the side that was the harbor view. (laughing)

 

Melinda: (laughing) You got enough punches on your punch card! You got to upgrade to harbor view. 

 

Emily: Right, right (laughing). But as she passed, the most splendid sunset-- and as her twins passed, like the most glorious sunset was occurring. Yeah. And I just sat—like, I don't remember what I said, but it was just over and over again, in my head loving her and her family and sending them into the sunset, kind of thing. And knowing that that was something that could happen to me. And that was where things were. With, you know, this possibility in my life-- it got really clear, like, the continuation of the world. That this beautiful, glorious, radiant sunset was happening during the biggest grief of this family's life. And one of the things and mantras that really helped me that I've shared with a few people in my world and I'm sharing with all of you today is ‘whales are swimming in the ocean.’ 

 

Melinda: That's amazing. I'm so stealing it and I have.

 

Emily: Yay! Yeah. Whales are swimming in the ocean right now. And no matter what's happening in our world this ridiculous, magical, incredibly, powerful heartbeat and rhythm and systems and breathing of the world goes on. It's just a great way—like, the whale swimming is the visualization that I need. And, so, whatever that visualization is that you need that reminds you that the world moves on and whether you're here or not, whether this project gets done or not, whether you said the right thing or not, whether you are all of the different things-- the world is moving on in this way that is just the most beautiful, incredible part of anything, ever (laughing). 

 

Melinda: Golly. So powerful.

 

Emily: Oh! That's why I needed to share this story! That's what it is, Melinda. You asked me at the beginning, why did I feel like I needed to share this story? Because, if anything, what I went through-- what I wish upon nobody-- taught me so much at a young age. Like, just these really clarifying things. I really hope that sharing this is a little bit of that. Without y’all having to go through the shit!

 

Melinda: Yes! 

 

Emily: But, yes, that's why I needed to tell this story. We don't have to get to death's doorstep to have these reckonings and realizations. We

can share these with each other. 

 

Melinda: It's true and you know I'm such a firm believer in this. We talk about it in the intro episode and that is the power of story. That's why you and I wanted to center story in our podcasting because it allows us to step into another person's experience, learn from it, feel it in our bodies, have the perspective of another person. The closest we can without necessarily having to go through the very same things. Yeah, right? So, you are offering us a gift and so, thank you. I'm glad you were able to figure out why you needed to.

 

Emily: (laughing) Yeah!

 

Melinda: So, I want us to circle back a little bit to this idea of, like, you know—obviously, it has shaped you to be the person that you are. I mean, that goes unspoken, really. But I want to know specifically-- can you point to anything this experience has done to influence your professional work, your leadership work?

 

Emily: Yes. All of it. 

 

Melinda: Yeah. Of course. I’m sure.

 

Emily: Yeah. This knowing that life is really brief, and fleeting has really influenced my leadership work. It's gotten me really clear on what I want to be doing. Work that is in service and in love for the world and needing to be in spaces and find ways to continue to do that. Lift that up. That's part of why I'm here doing this work with Melinda. And the many other things that I'm moving towards in life, right now. It's the advocacy for self but also that advocacy with and for others is a big part of it. I think one of the things that really came up for me during my surgeries is that people would often come to me with something that was going on in their life, or complain about, or say something about their lives. And then would say, “But it's nothing like what you're going through right now.” And that was one of the most separating things that I could have heard because I didn't need my thing to be the worst thing. It felt horrible that my thing was the worst thing. 

 

Melinda: Yeah.

 

Emily: I needed to be in shared humanity with people. To be connected to their struggles and their joys. I had a professor who I haven’t seen since because it was right after I graduated, right? So, I was still very close with my professors-- or at least close with my professors. And she came to the hospital after she had gone on this trip to Ireland. And she just talked about her trip the whole time and it was so refreshing. It wasn't about my medical-ness, but she shared the joys, right? So, what I'm getting to is, I think, in my leadership work and what I try to remind myself of, is we, everyone has a battle going on. 

 

Melinda: Yes!

 

Emily: There's that famous quote, you know, like around that-- to never minimize that battle. Like, nobody's battle is smaller, and nobody's battle is bigger than somebody else’s. Like it's all hard. And same with the joys. Like these are all joys-- and everything in between. The mess is all worthy to everything we experience as humans. And the emotions. And the yuck. And the good-- like it's all worthy. And to bring that into how I hold space with people is really important to me. And to create that space where people know that what they're going through right now, it matters.

 

Melinda: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want to wrap up a little bit by just talking about what's lingered. And I mean that from a funny place. Like, you know, things that were just absurd or, like you know, we've talked about some heavy stuff and some big learning, powerful learning. And, yet there had to be a million things that were also just hysterical, or absurd, or bizarre and I would love for us to end on a laugh.

​

Emily: (laughing) Oh man! Well, I laughed out loud about so many things about this whole world and what’s coming up-- the thing that's coming up for me right now is, I don't know if you're able to use this because, we’ll have to see if they’re OK with it. (laughing) So, in between surgeries my mom and I were staying with my now husband and, in early days, boyfriend’s parents, who lived outside of Seattle. They generously opened their homes to us, but at one point my partner ended up having to wash my mom's underwear (laughing). 

Melinda: (laughing)

 

Emily: He was in his senior year of college and like he’s a college kid (laughing). So, for like years after that, whenever something came up where it was maybe TMI, or too much closeness to like for my mom and my partner, it's always like, “I've washed your underwear. Like, we're good.” (laughing) 

 

Melinda: (laughing) We've gone to the places, right? Well, I'm sad we have to close but we do. And I just, again, want to thank you so much for, you know, just offering such a big piece of your life to our listeners and to me. You know, your sharing of the story just reminds me of the power of community, the power of self-trust-- of believing in oneself, learning how to have a voice. My last question is, what would you tell yourself in that moment now? The moment you, for example, found out that you were-- that you made the decision you were going to go through the surgery? What would you tell that Emily now?

 

Emily: The moment I decided to go through the surgery I would tell her, “You are stronger and braver than you could ever imagine. And you are more loved than you could ever imagine. And let that be the truth and let that be a part of your life.” 

 

Melinda: Thank you.

 

Emily: Yeah. 

 

Melinda: And thank you all so much for listening to episode three. We will be back next time with a new story and a new guest, and we can't wait to be with you again. 

 

Emily: Thank you all.

 

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Melinda: Thank you for taking the time to gather with us today. Keep our connection strong by visiting us at timetogatherpodcast.com or by following the Time to Gather podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. We would love to hear from you. What resonated today? What are your stories? What risks have you taken?

 

Emily: We love connecting with you and doing this work. Head over to our website and hit the donate button to help keep the stories coming. We're a grassroots, low-fi effort and your support is both needed and appreciated. Thank you and we can't wait to gather with you again.

 

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